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Can you be good without God?
Salam Alaikum,
The title is of a thread was written by an American atheist guy. He said you do not need to believe in God to be a good person with morals and values and he presented charity as an example for that. Most of us think that athiests are not good people, but this is not true although there is a big difference between believers and atheists. This following essay was my answer to the question of the thread. I said: "While Atheism worships individualism, Islam put the society in the first priority. Giving the example of charity, how you take it, how you feel when you pay to the poor depends on many factors, like if you're a generous person by nature, your genes, where you come from, your habits and customs, your mood at the time, and probably the color/race/gender/nationality of the guy asking you for money, even factors like what newspapers you read or TV channels you watch.. things that differ from one person to the other. But Islam makes a leap over all these small differences, and serve the society the way it should be served, regardless of our small shortcomings. Here's another example: Picture this. You are a commander in the battlefield, and many lives were lost from your group as they were trying to fight the enemy, before managing to capture some of the killers of your buddies. Looking at their faces, you discovered that those are the same bloody soldiers who brutally raided your home the other day, killing your loved ones, before setting everything on fire. Now, what would you do? 1- give them food and shelter, and see that they're treated well? or.. 2- blow their brains out? If you're a Muslim, Allah commands you, in several verses in the Quran, to follow instructions #1. Being atheist, means that those soldiers will be left up to your own 'personal' mercy. Even if you're one of a kind and opted for #1, look around you and see what human justice does, for example in the case of the US or israel, and see how they treat their POWs in torture camps and secret prisons. This is how justice looks like when left in the hands of humans that are not guided but by their own version of mercy. Mercy is something good, but human mercy is not to be trusted. I would trust a true Muslim, following the Quran on the peace of humans and everything on this planet, far more than someone who follows his/her own instruction collection, made up of a mixture of some whims, personal taste and biased judgments." The end of my answer. It is clearly from the essay that atheists can be good, but not to the same extent as believers. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
Impossible
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Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
It seems that you did not read what I posted. Anyway, thanks for passing:) |
رد: Can you be good without God?
an english thinker said(man is a wolf for man)without GOD it is impossible to be good.
if we look at the history deeply.humanity suffered from torture.from persecution.from bloodshed and so on. only prophets could make people well civilised.to be mercifu and.humanitarian. why do all people established states and laws? why people still give priority to religiouse leaders in case of wars and conflicts? the modern civilisation depends officially on atheism in the west as well as in the east with different degrees.but could this civilisation make all nations happy. in the west every thing disirable deos exist but people are not happy .they feel something very important is lost. people in the west spiritully are crying.but nobody care. we can.t be good without GOD it is a creed.something unspeakable a strong certitude inside me tells me that is impossile to be good without GOD |
رد: Can you be good without God?
every one here is talking about his own personal opinion, but for my scientific mind I need to crunch on numbers so lets face the reality :
- there are so few atheists in USA prisons, in fact surveys show that more than 5% of americans are atheists, but in USA prisons they make less than 1% ?? - why atheistic countries like sweden and japan have the lowest crime rates ? - Divorce rates for atheists are among the lowest in USA ?? Can anyone explain this discordance please ? Sources : there are plenty of sources online, just google for them, here are some just to name a few : http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistf...stsDivorce.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2008...divorce-rates/ http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb1501.pdf http://www.democraticunderground.com...ress=263x24145 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1220738AAOaHTM http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-121066.0.html |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
First of all, thanks for giving your opinion:) Secondly, you are neglecting the fact that Atheists are just people like us. They have feelings and can be effected by how begar miserably looks, or his race, or his nationality. Here is when the difference between believers and atheists appears, we give charity to needy people regardless of their colour, nationality, gender....ect Thus Islam serves the society as it should be served. Here I am talking about atheists individually, but this will differ when atheists become numberous and even ruled some countries cause they will only be a mere playing of their whims and caprices wich teach them nothing but to drive the maximum possible amount of pleasure during his short life. |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Do you think it is fair to compare a minority to majority? Wich western country was founded "purely" on Atheism? I can present countless argument to make atheism looks as stupid as it is, but I am not here to win the argument. I do care much for what such a conversation can add to my knoweldge. You talk about Sweden and Japan and present them as an example of good atheists. Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates especially amongst industrialized nations. Sweden has the lowest crime rate, but the crimes are increasing. You talk about divorce among atheists and I say again how do you comapre a minority to majority, besides that not all atheists get married. I really doubt that marriage will disappear if atheists become a majority. |
رد: Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
completely different, same thing is valid about divorces it is true what you said about crime rates in sweden but when I searched to verify that I came across a disturbing detail : most crimes in sweden are committed by muslims, according to stats most rapes in sweden are committes by immegrants from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia and there are plenty of sources online to verify this statement, just google them up. |
Re: رد: Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Let me make my point more clear. You said atheists are more than 5% in USA and the crime rate is less than 1%, but still there is a comparison between believers and atheists. It is like saying atheists have a lowest rate of crime and believers have a highest rate of crime. I can present an example of American Muslims in USA which have the lowest rate of crimes and rapes comparing them to other ethnic groups. Not most of the crimes are committed by Muslims as you said, yes they are highly represented, but half of the crimes are committed by non-Swedish people. I see that you still insist on giving Sweden as a good example to present atheism, but let us take a look at the history of the country. Sweden, in 1960's has moved from religion to atheism, there still a minority of Swedish who still religious. What you ignore is that Sweden was not purely founded on atheism and much of the good in Sweden is a result of Christian cultural values have been preserved, even though they do not believe in God. Those who believe in God reprsent 23% of Swedish people. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
salam
let me reformulate the prison facts once and for all: in USA more than 5% of the population are atheists, your assumptions state that atheists have less moral values, so we can deduce that atheists should commit more crimes than others because of the lack of morals, in that case atheist population in prisons should be more than 5% , unless atheists are smarter than others and don't get caught, but when we look at numbers we find that less than 1% of the inmates are atheists whic proves that the latter assumption is wrong and in fact atheists committ less crimes than others. notice that I didnt use any comparison with other religions whatsoever. your second assumption about swedish atheists contradicts with the fact stated above, please think again your logic or bring some hard facts to support your statement :"much of the good in Sweden is a result of Christian cultural values have been preserved" |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
I should clear again my position regarding atheists if they are capable of any good, before doing so I really advise you to read my words again and again to get what I wrote cause what I said in the main thread was adressed to atheists from different parts of the world including those who are native speakers. I said that atheists can do good, but there is a difference between atheists and believers in this regard. We as muslims, Islam teaches us to serve the society as it should served regardless of the race, colour, gender... ect of needy people. This difference appears clearly in the example of charity. Read again the second example, you will see that you can not trust a human being following his won version of mercy, and we prefer to follow a true Muslim. Also you are neglecting the way atheists live. Atheists are a kind of people who are looking for pleasure like sex and sports. This is what most of atheists care about, even some of them say we worship sports. If you think that I am wrong about that, then I really advise you to visit UK as an example to get a clue about how they live. I also should mention that there is a book about this issue, if you want to read it, just let me know. My second assumption does not contradict with what any fact you stated, rather than you are ignoring that there is no western country was founded purely on atheism and the much of the good stil there is a result of the influence of religion itself. Much more of that, education in Swden was based on religion till 2007 when the government has announced it will be banning any religious activities in schools except for those who are related to religion classes. I have two questions: * Are you a muslim or an atheist? * Do you think atheists can rule a country like any other religious men? You may not answer my questions. You are not obliged to do so:) |
رد: Can you be good without God?
i do agree with you mr.zanaz that some atheists are good.
they don.t believe in God but they could be better than moslims whi believe in God in certain way. i can.t grasp the meaning of (goodness) of an actress for instance making immoral movies(sex .crimes)to help some orphans in Africa. those atheists who run after their desires and pleasures can.t be good. because the first condition of goodness to put your pleasures aside. mr.Pink wants to show that atheists are better in (goodness than us.may be .he is right in certain points. mr.Pink .don.t forget .we are speaking about the right moslims. this is first. also.don.t forget our miserable situations.in islamic laws.we can.t punish thieves unless to know their living conditions. without God we can never be good may be apparently we see atheists good but in the depth they never be good. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
so we agree that atheists can also have moral values, now let me show you that religion (belief systems in general )can make immoral behaviours seem moral, take for example the jews in palestine who believe that eradicating palestinians is not only acceptable but it is a duty because god told them so.
another example is laws of slavery in islam,in islam it is ok to buy and sell slaves, what's moral about that ?? also terroists who base their ideology on islam to say it is okay to blow yourself in a group of innocent people and kill as mush as you can in the name of allah and then go to the best place in heaven, I agree with you if you say that they dont present real islam but would an atheist do that ? there are many other examples like honor killing, genocides, hypocrisy,......... which are not directly relied to religion but religion makes them look acceptable. I don't have much time now so I can't go further but my conclusion is : believing in a religion can make immoral behaviors look acceptable. PS: my religion is irrelevant to the subject greetings |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
You are arguing about religion saying it makes immoral things look moral. I am not here to talk or defend the Jews, I’ll address only what has a relation to Islam. It is not really wise to put all religions in one, since there is only one true religion. You argument about religion makes immoral things be moral is weak and one sided view of this life. What do you think about democracy? Isn’t it good? Yes, sure it is, but in the name of democracy Bush invaded two countries and killed many innocent people. Should we blame democracy or the one who misused it? When someone drives a new car and make an accident, who is to blame? The car or the driver? Democracy made killing and invading of two Muslim countries look moral and more than that, resisting the occupiers will be listed as a crime. You will be a terrorist cause you are defending your own family and daughters from rape. Atheists always use the argument of why people kill and blow up themselves in the name of religion, while we do not do that? This argument is only to turn reality on its head, many wars and even those who blow up themselves not really derived by religion. Many wars had been lunched for political and economical benefits. Should we abolish policy or economy? The same people who use this argument does not recognize the difference between Islam and Muslims; Islam is one thing and how Muslim apply it is another thing. In this regard, anyone who believes what some Muslim do (they are not even scholars) is either incredibly naïve or incredibly ignorant. Comes down to the basics really. In every society you have bands of idiots. No one society is immune from this. These idiots make their own assertations and assumptions about their ideology/religion and go about doing idiotic things even if its completely opposite of what the beliefs they are citing says. Imam Ali(may God be pleased with him) has a saying that addresses this point perfectly: "Truth is not known by those who call themselves men of Truth, but know the Truth, then you shall know its men"' People have emotions and then there are people who manipulate the weak minded towards their own gains. As for how people interpret it in different ways well they take the verse out of context, for example you could read the first five verse of chapter nine and leave it to that then and don't read about the background of the Surah then obviou it would be much easy to misinterpret the message. I sometimes wonder how you who knows Arabic did not do anything to clear your prejudices about Islam. I do not blame those who does not know Arabic cause if they knew it, this would help us a lot to clear many prejudices. Regardless of that, I wil address the issue of slavery in Islam. The economic and domestic system of Arabia in pre-Islamic times was built entirely on slavery. Simply abolishing slavery could have brought more harm than good, as it could have led to starvation, crime, and etc. Not only that, but it would have turned people away from accepting Islam (in order to convince someone that Allah does not like slavery, you have to teach them first WHO Allah is). The same was done with alcohol, the first ruling against it was that people shouldn't come to prayer while intoxicated. The final ruling, after people had firm iman (faith) in their hearts, was that alcohol was not allowed. Slavery has many conditions on it. Primarily, the only slavery allowed to the Muslims at the time was the enslavement of the enemy. It was a way of having dominance over the enemy without relinquishing their lives or subjecting them to a life-term imprisonment. Even then, the Qur'an taught us the many virtues and rewards of freeing slaves, and the fair treatment of slaves (even to the point of giving them their own wages). The slavery that was allowed by Allah is a much different slavery than was practiced by the Arabs, who considered their slaves as nothing more than the lowest of creatures. Still there is much a lot to say about what you wrote, but this is enough for now. I said you are not obliged to answer my questions:) I got my answers. Peace. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
the main subject as it is mentoined above is (can you good without God)
but it seems to me that mr.Pink wants to show that (we can.t be good with God)(mr.Pink looks at all religions are the samebelief system in general that is wrong.because we consider that christianity and jodaism are corrupted. what he has mentined (slavery and terrorism) needs to be clarify.mr.Zanaz has done good in his answers. Islam came in principle to eradicate slavery. many cases in Islamic laws(fikh islami) if you want to correct mistakes you commit or you want to worship God realy it is better to emancipate slaves.Islam comes to put an end to slavery.this is evidently well known in Islamic laws. the question of terrorism is unversal and every nation expleined the term according to its benifits. America killed hundreds of thousands of innocents in the name of (terrorism wars) also.all people knows that ther is unanimity among all islamic scholars that terrorism is Haram. so the three exemples as arguments are weak. mr.Pink you should diffrenciate between twos things. not all religions are the same. the right islam is not the muslims you see here and ther. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
Did you place a large bet against yourself in this argument ? because you are making it so easy for me )I said before I am criticising the concept of believing in god (or any other belief system), not a particular religion, I said I know they dont present real islam, but their interpretation of religion makes them do immoral things in the name of god, any god! Should I use a bigger font for you to understand ? your argument about bush proves your ignorance, it is true that bush was elected by democracy, but his war on iraq was based on religion, read the following quotes by bush : "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it." --George W. Bush commenting to Texas evangelist James Robinson in the run-up to his presidential campaign "I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." Sharm el-Sheikh August 2003 "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job". Statement made during campaign visit to Amish community, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, Jul. 9, 2004 you should also know that the Republican party, at which Bush belongs is more religious than the Democrat party, finally have a look at this website it will give you an ample idea about religion in USA and who supports war, http://www.americananglican.org/chur...-war-with-iraq same things are said about israel government now I believe that the democratic system has corrected its mistake and elected Barrack Obama from the Democrat party which is the first american president to recognise atheists. is slavery morally acceptable or not ? are u trying to make it look morally acceptable by using religion ? your arguments only made my point stronger so I dont need to go further salam offtopic question : everybody says real islam is not like that, I ve read books that talk about islam, actually I have 300 of them right here next to me, but can u show me a place in the world where I find real islam? or does it exist only in books ? (keep your answer very short, I dont want to discuss what is real islam and what isn't |
رد: Can you be good without God?
may be the discussion is between you and mr Zanaz.
but excuse me if i interfer do you want a new interpretation for Islam or you don.t believe in it at all? what do you mean by saying the concept of believing in God? i think Islam is well clear like the sun or more. wher have you found that the interpretation of Islam makes immoral things look moral or acceptable. please mention these resources or refrences. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
here is an example : http://www.ala7ebah.com/upload/showthread.php?t=45932 look at all the pictures on the page read the comments in the page what makes those people happy to see people jumping to their demise ? isn't that a sick thing ??? and everyone who commented agrees too all that on a site named "منتديات الأحبة في الله" is this example enough ? |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Feel free to comment my words or pink's words. I will be glad to see ya taking a part in this discussion. |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Let me adress your view about wars, wich I found it shallow and lack hard facts and if reigion was the ultimate reason for these wars. Those who need wars can invent thousands reasons for raging wars, the wars in any era is initiated due to the obssession of three factors: geography, race and resources. Bush and his allies raged two wars and invaded two countries not as you said above; quotes of Bush, wich is only the surface of this wars. It is agreed by many thinkers that invading Iraq and afghanistan was not for religious purpose as you said but rather for resources of these two lands. Here I would mention what Malalai Joya, an Afghan woman who wrote about USA and warlord's, let me give you an idea about her book: She tells the story of how the Taliban were replaced by warlords who are just as bad. She explains how the aid money is stolen and the Americans have put former Taliban in high positions and how warlords are war criminals but are now paid for and protected by the U.S. and are in charge of Afghanistan while the ordinary people who want democracy are nowhere near reaching it. War on Terror? What about the terror of the innocent people of Afghanistan who are terrorised by warlords, Taliban and US/coalition air strikes? Malalai says education and development is the answer, not war, and that the Afghans can struggle for democracy on their own without Western interference which is making it much worse. Do you want me to list more about the benefits of these two wars to USA and its allies to know that these wars are waged for poltical and economical benefits. It is the same thing you ignore by bringing religion to the image. Still my question stands: "Should we abolish or blame policy and economic for these wars?" The slavery you're talking about and the slavery I talked about is not the same thing. Re-read my words again. I try the best I can to make my answer short, but this is kinda impossible cause the issues you raised can not be clarified by one or two sentences. The last point you raised about Islam I will adress it, but not today. I feel like it is better to open a new thread about it. Peace. |
Re: Can you be good without God?
Pink unicorn,
Take your time to replay. You are not obliged to replay as soon as you read my words. |
Re: Can you be good without God?
For the last two years, I met an English lady who has been an active member and works hard for noble reasons. Here is an essay, she wrote about Afghanistan; as I said war raged to impose democracy on these two countries and also for other reasons that can be political and economical:
War in Afghanistan ... why? "With a sharp increase in the number of British troops losing their lives in Afghanistan, the reasons for the British military presence there is coming under increasing public scrutiny. There has never been a better time to unite (anti-war campaigners and forces' families) in our criticism of this unwinnable war. Those in the Political elite that continue to argue for the war, are not the ones dying in that land of poverty and hardship. The father of a recently killed soldier said, "I don't want to think he wasted his life for nothing",('My son died for worthy campaign', BBC news site 10/07/09). But so long as this poorly resourced and ill-conceived war continues, more soldiers will die in vain. Wars never solved anything, it is time the art of diplomacy was given a try. Why are we at war? To catch Osama Bin Laden? To eliminate the Taliban? (and do we know who the Taliban really are in 2009?) To impose democracy (note the irony!)? To stop the supply of heroin to the UK? ... well not much progress then ... ... but no, this is why we are there (apparently) ... "The case for our continued involvement ... is to prevent terrorist attacks here and across the world" (Gordon Brown, No. 10 press release, 13/07/09). This is "our patriotic duty" (Gordon Brown, quoted on itv.com 12/07/09). "The UK, alongside 40 other nations, are in Afghanistan at the invitation of the democratically elected Afghan government to help rebuild and develop a country emerging from a quarter century of conflict." (UK Foreign and Commonwealth office website, accessed 19/07/09). Recently I met a British national who had worked in Afghanistan (claiming the Afghans want 'us' there, well sorry I am sceptical), who was 'surprised' at the unpopularity of the British there! I don't know, we destroy their infrastructure, kill countless thousands of their people, create anarchy then support a government accused of corruption, and create such fear and violence that displaces over two million people as refugees, and then they don't seem to like us much. Mmm, puzzling ... (God give me strength!) The point to my ramblings (yes there is a point!) is that I think it is time we all stood up and demanded that our government (living on another planet from us maybe? If only!) draw up a political strategy to pull the troops out of Afghanistan as quickly as possible, and use some of the money saved to develop that country (given to Afghans not western contractors that leech off supposed international aid) and the rest of the money on UK schools, hospitals or state pensions. That way we might be able to start building a more ethical relationship of mutual respect with Islamic nations as a way forward in preventing terror attacks. And it would be the best way to prevent any more loss of life for Afghans and British troops, and if it took the heavy death toll in recent days to bring us to our senses then the deaths won't be in vain, if we continue to bury our heads in the sand and fail to admit the reality, then there will be soldiers dying for nothing." Written by Helen, England, 19 July 2009. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
mr.Zanaz you are doing well
mr.Pink what you have presented as enough exemple in that link means nothing because it is just an impression of unknown member like you and me and you know how many forums like this either in Arabic or in English what do you think of atheists who behave like animals (sex crimes rapes against children)ther are a lot of links to show that but we get shameful to present it. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
mr.Zanaz you are doing well
mr.Pink what you have presented as enough exemple in that link means nothing because it is just an impression of unknown member like you and me and you know how many forums like this either in Arabic or in English what do you think of atheists who behave like animals (sex crimes rapes against children)ther are a lot of links to show that but we get shameful to present it. |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Do not hesitate to say your opinion or comment my words or pink's words. Please, feel free to do that. This will help you. It did for me before and it will be the same for you. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
yes. i feel my English is improving .may be .it takes along time.
believe me mr.Zanaz here in echorouk forum in some boards some members do not hesitate to attack you with strong bad words.it seems to them a kind style to defend Islam. that is why i said befor that mr Pink has some rights in certain points. also.that is why i asked you and mr.Pink to excuse me. for me really without any compliment for me you are the best exemple. God bless you. |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
I would care less if someone insulted me. I have been insulted and accused of being anti-semitic, hypocrite and ignorant, but I really do not care. I have no intention to win the argument with Pink unicorn rather than waiting what this discussion will add to my knoweldge. Seeing muslims insult others make me sad cause no matter what knoweldge you have, never judge people cause there is the ONE who will judge us. Be proud of yourself, brother. You are a good example for me:) I do not mind if you had a part in this discussion, more on that, I will be glad if you shared your opinions and ideas with us:) May Allah bring you peace and happiness. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
God bless you brother mr.Zanaz.
wher is mr.Pink? we are waiting him to see whether he changed his opinion concerning this issue or no? |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Pink unicorn is free to do whatever he wants. I already did my task by answering his questions and the rest is upon him. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
nice to know this happen here and in this website we have loads of good ppl who knows loads :d xxxx
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Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
I would not mind if you threw your two cents:)icon30 |
رد: Can you be good without God?
what does mr.Sniper mean by that §
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Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
I guess Sniper-Dz is glad to see such debates take place in Echorouk forums. He also said it is good to see loads of good people, which means a large amount or number of good people here, however his last words should be rephrased again cause I also didn't catch its meaning. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
WHAT THAT'S MEAN FOR US
HE IS FREE ABOUT WHAT HIS BELIVe؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ |
رد: Can you be good without God?
Hello again to all the members who have added to this thread, I am sorry for my abrupt departure, I had to pass some exams so I took a break from the forum, now that I am free I can go back to our debate after I take a deep look at how it evolved since I left
all the best |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
Salam Alaikum, Apparently the thread means a lot since I am not the only one who is interested:) |
Re: رد: Can you be good without God?
اقتباس:
There is no need to be sorry. As I said before, take your time to answer if you want to:) I hope you have done well in your exams. I will be waiting for your comment. All the best to you. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
we need to see something new in this thread.
GOS bless you mr.Zanaz. |
رد: Can you be good without God?
no its impossibl
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رد: Can you be good without God?
:6:Almost 3 years |
| الساعة الآن 04:14 AM. |
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