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Thanks for rephrasing your words again. Note that I give much importance to what you write more than what you intend to mean.
I should clear again my position regarding atheists if they are capable of any good, before doing so I really advise you to read my words again and again to get what I wrote cause what I said in the main thread was adressed to atheists from different parts of the world including those who are native speakers.
I said that atheists can do good, but there is a difference between atheists and believers in this regard. We as muslims, Islam teaches us to serve the society as it should served regardless of the race, colour, gender... ect of needy people. This difference appears clearly in the example of charity.
Read again the second example, you will see that you can not trust a human being following his won version of mercy, and we prefer to follow a true Muslim.
Also you are neglecting the way atheists live. Atheists are a kind of people who are looking for pleasure like sex and sports. This is what most of atheists care about, even some of them say we worship sports. If you think that I am wrong about that, then I really advise you to visit UK as an example to get a clue about how they live. I also should mention that there is a book about this issue, if you want to read it, just let me know.
My second assumption does not contradict with what any fact you stated, rather than you are ignoring that there is no western country was founded purely on atheism and the much of the good stil there is a result of the influence of religion itself.
Much more of that, education in Swden was based on religion till 2007 when the government has announced it will be banning any religious activities in schools except for those who are related to religion classes.

I have two questions:
* Are you a muslim or an atheist?
* Do you think atheists can rule a country like any other religious men?
You may not answer my questions. You are not obliged to do so:)

i do agree with you mr.zanaz that some atheists are good.
they don.t believe in God but they could be better than moslims whi believe in God in certain way.
i can.t grasp the meaning of (goodness) of an actress for instance making immoral movies(sex .crimes)to help some orphans in Africa.
those atheists who run after their desires and pleasures can.t be good.
because the first condition of goodness to put your pleasures aside.
mr.Pink wants to show that atheists are better in (goodness than us.may be .he is right in certain points.
mr.Pink .don.t forget .we are speaking about the right moslims.
this is first.
also.don.t forget our miserable situations.in islamic laws.we can.t punish thieves unless to know their living conditions.
without God we can never be good
may be apparently we see atheists good but in the depth they never be good.

so we agree that atheists can also have moral values, now let me show you that religion (belief systems in general )can make immoral behaviours seem moral, take for example the jews in palestine who believe that eradicating palestinians is not only acceptable but it is a duty because god told them so.
another example is laws of slavery in islam,in islam it is ok to buy and sell slaves, what's moral about that ??
also terroists who base their ideology on islam to say it is okay to blow yourself in a group of innocent people and kill as mush as you can in the name of allah and then go to the best place in heaven, I agree with you if you say that they dont present real islam but would an atheist do that ?

there are many other examples like honor killing, genocides, hypocrisy,......... which are not directly relied to religion but religion makes them look acceptable.

I don't have much time now so I can't go further but my conclusion is : believing in a religion can make immoral behaviors look acceptable.

PS: my religion is irrelevant to the subject

greetings

I do agree that atheists can have morals, but they can not reach the same level of goodness as believers and will never do so. Atheism worship individualism, but Islam put the society in the first priority. I can say more that atheism preaches selfishness more than any other belief, or way of life.
You are arguing about religion saying it makes immoral things look moral. I am not here to talk or defend the Jews, I’ll address only what has a relation to Islam.
It is not really wise to put all religions in one, since there is only one true religion.
You argument about religion makes immoral things be moral is weak and one sided view of this life.
What do you think about democracy? Isn’t it good? Yes, sure it is, but in the name of democracy Bush invaded two countries and killed many innocent people. Should we blame democracy or the one who misused it? When someone drives a new car and make an accident, who is to blame? The car or the driver?
Democracy made killing and invading of two Muslim countries look moral and more than that, resisting the occupiers will be listed as a crime. You will be a terrorist cause you are defending your own family and daughters from rape.
Atheists always use the argument of why people kill and blow up themselves in the name of religion, while we do not do that?
This argument is only to turn reality on its head, many wars and even those who blow up themselves not really derived by religion. Many wars had been lunched for political and economical benefits. Should we abolish policy or economy?
The same people who use this argument does not recognize the difference between Islam and Muslims; Islam is one thing and how Muslim apply it is another thing. In this regard, anyone who believes what some Muslim do (they are not even scholars) is either incredibly naïve or incredibly ignorant.
Comes down to the basics really.
In every society you have bands of idiots. No one society is immune from this. These idiots make their own assertations and assumptions about their ideology/religion and go about doing idiotic things even if its completely opposite of what the beliefs they are citing says.
Imam Ali(may God be pleased with him) has a saying that addresses this point perfectly: "Truth is not known by those who call themselves men of Truth, but know the Truth, then you shall know its men"'
People have emotions and then there are people who manipulate the weak minded towards their own gains. As for how people interpret it in different ways well they take the verse out of context, for example you could read the first five verse of chapter nine and leave it to that then and don't read about the background of the Surah then obviou it would be much easy to misinterpret the message.
I sometimes wonder how you who knows Arabic did not do anything to clear your prejudices about Islam. I do not blame those who does not know Arabic cause if they knew it, this would help us a lot to clear many prejudices.
Regardless of that, I wil address the issue of slavery in Islam.
The economic and domestic system of Arabia in pre-Islamic times was built entirely on slavery. Simply abolishing slavery could have brought more harm than good, as it could have led to starvation, crime, and etc. Not only that, but it would have turned people away from accepting Islam (in order to convince someone that Allah does not like slavery, you have to teach them first WHO Allah is). The same was done with alcohol, the first ruling against it was that people shouldn't come to prayer while intoxicated. The final ruling, after people had firm iman (faith) in their hearts, was that alcohol was not allowed.
Slavery has many conditions on it. Primarily, the only slavery allowed to the Muslims at the time was the enslavement of the enemy. It was a way of having dominance over the enemy without relinquishing their lives or subjecting them to a life-term imprisonment. Even then, the Qur'an taught us the many virtues and rewards of freeing slaves, and the fair treatment of slaves (even to the point of giving them their own wages). The slavery that was allowed by Allah is a much different slavery than was practiced by the Arabs, who considered their slaves as nothing more than the lowest of creatures.
Still there is much a lot to say about what you wrote, but this is enough for now.
I said you are not obliged to answer my questions:) I got my answers.


Peace.

the main subject as it is mentoined above is (can you good without God)
but it seems to me that mr.Pink wants to show that (we can.t be good with God)(mr.Pink looks at all religions are the samebelief system in general
that is wrong.because we consider that christianity and jodaism are corrupted.
what he has mentined (slavery and terrorism) needs to be clarify.mr.Zanaz has done good in his answers.
Islam came in principle to eradicate slavery. many cases in Islamic laws(fikh islami) if you want to correct mistakes you commit or you want to worship God realy it is better to emancipate slaves.Islam comes to put an end to slavery.this is evidently well known in Islamic laws.
the question of terrorism is unversal and every nation expleined the term according to its benifits.
America killed hundreds of thousands of innocents in the name of (terrorism wars) also.all people knows that ther is unanimity among all islamic scholars that terrorism is Haram.
so the three exemples as arguments are weak.
mr.Pink you should diffrenciate between twos things.
not all religions are the same.
the right islam is not the muslims you see here and ther.

)

may be the discussion is between you and mr Zanaz.
but excuse me if i interfer
do you want a new interpretation for Islam or you don.t believe in it at all?
what do you mean by saying the concept of believing in God?
i think Islam is well clear like the sun or more.
wher have you found that the interpretation of Islam makes immoral things look moral or acceptable.
please mention these resources or refrences.

you want to see a source or reference of how interpretation of islam makes immoral things look moral or acceptable ? you mean that what you see in the media every day is not enough ??

here is an example :

http://www.ala7ebah.com/upload/showthread.php?t=45932

look at all the pictures on the page

read the comments in the page

what makes those people happy to see people jumping to their demise ? isn't that a sick thing ??? and everyone who commented agrees too all that on a site named
"منتديات الأحبة في الله"

is this example enough ?

Salam Alaikum brother,
Feel free to comment my words or pink's words. I will be glad to see ya taking a part in this discussion.

I am aware of what you said, but as I said earlier, there is only one true religion and any other belief is a man made religion. Following such kind of religions will lead to more troubles and confusion cause these religion are nothing but laws are made and derived by men who follow their whims and their own values and morals. Thus, if you want to put all religions in one cup. It is okay, and I am not going to adress or defend misguided people and I truly believe that Islam is the true religion.
Let me adress your view about wars, wich I found it shallow and lack hard facts and if reigion was the ultimate reason for these wars.
Those who need wars can invent thousands reasons for raging wars, the wars in any era is initiated due to the obssession of three factors: geography, race and resources.
Bush and his allies raged two wars and invaded two countries not as you said above; quotes of Bush, wich is only the surface of this wars. It is agreed by many thinkers that invading Iraq and afghanistan was not for religious purpose as you said but rather for resources of these two lands. Here I would mention what Malalai Joya, an Afghan woman who wrote about USA and warlord's, let me give you an idea about her book:
She tells the story of how the Taliban were replaced by warlords who are just as bad. She explains how the aid money is stolen and the Americans have put former Taliban in high positions and how warlords are war criminals but are now paid for and protected by the U.S. and are in charge of Afghanistan while the ordinary people who want democracy are nowhere near reaching it. War on Terror? What about the terror of the innocent people of Afghanistan who are terrorised by warlords, Taliban and US/coalition air strikes? Malalai says education and development is the answer, not war, and that the Afghans can struggle for democracy on their own without Western interference which is making it much worse.
Do you want me to list more about the benefits of these two wars to USA and its allies to know that these wars are waged for poltical and economical benefits. It is the same thing you ignore by bringing religion to the image. Still my question stands: "Should we abolish or blame policy and economic for these wars?"
The slavery you're talking about and the slavery I talked about is not the same thing. Re-read my words again.
I try the best I can to make my answer short, but this is kinda impossible cause the issues you raised can not be clarified by one or two sentences.
The last point you raised about Islam I will adress it, but not today. I feel like it is better to open a new thread about it.
Peace.